AP, IB, and Dual Enrollment (or PSEO): An Analysis
A reader recently wrote in to ask my opinion about dual enrollment courses, and to compare them to the Advanced Placement (or AP) options at her sons’ school. The question came on a post I wrote analyzing the worth of AP courses.
First, a brief word of explanation about “dual enrollment,” or what some know as PSEO: “post secondary enrollment options.” Most states now allow high school students to enroll in community college or university courses and to apply the credits earned to their high school transcript. Students are thus dually enrolled: they earn both high school AND college credits for the same course. In some cases, these courses are offered in the high school by community college faculty. In some cases, high school faculty are “approved” or certified by the community college to offer college level courses after the college has approved the syllabus. In some cases, students leave their high school to attend courses at the community college. However they are organized, dually enrolled students receive two sorts of credit for their work. They receive grades on their high school transcript, and the same grades are recorded in their college transcripts. Two birds, one stone.
The advantages of dual enrollment/PSEO courses include:
- High schools can offer honors level courses without hiring new staff
- Districts can save money by partnering with community colleges
- Parents can save on college tuition, because these college credits are transferable to most state universities
- Students demonstrate that they can handle college-level work
- Students who doubt their own abilities to succeed in college experience success and are more likely to apply to college–and eventually graduate
- Community colleges and 4-year institutions build a pipeline of students moving from high school to college
- State governments and local governments appreciate the collaboration between K-12 and higher education
In states where PSEO options exist, the state government creates master articulation agreements to ensure that credits earned while in high school are guaranteed transfer to higher education systems in that state. Thus, if you take a dual enrollment course in Virginia, your credits are automatically accepted for credit by state-funded universities in Virginia–as long as the grade earned is a C- or above, and as long as the courses are considered academic, “general education” course (as opposed to remedial or developmental courses, or technical or industrial skills courses.
So now for my reader’s question, which has two parts:
First, if students in Florida take PSEO credits in Florida, are those college credits applicable only to Florida colleges, or will they be accepted elsewhere?
Second, which makes more sense: dual enrollment courses for college credit, or AP courses for college credit?
The answer to the first question is fairly easy: state colleges and universities are very likely to accept PSEO credits from another state, as long as the credits are listed on a transcript from an accredited community college or university. Universities in Colorado, therefore, will accept credits from Florida, as long as they are academic in nature and the grade earned is above a C-. In Colorado, there is NO LIMIT to the number of credits that can thus be transferred. If all the courses a student takes in her junior and senior years of high school are dually enrolled, then effectively that student conceivably could enter as a first semester JUNIOR in college (depending on where the credits are and how they conform to the university’s graduation and major requirements). In Colorado, the student with PSEO credits enters as a first-year student, not as a transfer student. (In Colorado, if a high school graduate takes college courses after earning a high school diploma, the student cannot take more than 12 semester hours of credit without being considered a transfer student, which may mean the number of credits transferred in can be limited.)
Private colleges are a different matter, however. As private entities, they are free to establish their own transfer criteria. Thus it is best to check in advance of applying what the college’s policy toward dual enrollment or PSEO credits will be. Some will be happy to transfer the courses in, as long as there is an equivalent offered at their college. Others may require a grade of B or better to transfer. Some more selective colleges may use PSEO credits only to waive prerequisites or for placement purposes. One thing is clear, however: colleges and universities of all types smile upon students who have completed dual enrollment or PSEO courses. These courses demonstrate the ability to do college-level work, and they send the signal to admissions offices that this student is likely to succeed at our college–because they have been tested in real college environments.
Now for the second question: which is better, AP or PSEO? The answer is: it depends.
First, some schools are unable to offer both AP and PSEO. In fact, rural high schools are much more likely to rely on PSEO courses than AP, because dual enrollment is less expensive to the school district–especially if there is not enough demand to fill a complete AP course. So if there is no AP or IB option in your school, you should definitely consider PSEO options.
Second, if your goal is to reduce the costs of attending a state university, PSEO credits are a guaranteed discount. Because states automatically require these courses to transfer, any PSEO course you take will reduce the number of credits you must complete (and pay for!) while in college. As long you dually enroll in a college prep course and you get a C- or better, you get the college credit. The AP test, by contrast, comes with a high stakes test: take the course, get an A, and then take the test. If you pass with a score of 3, 4, or 5, you MIGHT get college credit, based on the policy in place at a particular college or university. And as I have written, an A in the class is no predictor of success on the AP test.
Third, if your school has a strong AP program that has a history of success in helping students earn 4s and 5s on the AP test, you might want to consider the AP courses if you plan to attend a highly selective college or university. The reason is this: the AP test is a demonstration of proficiency and competence in a subject matter. While a credit is a demonstration that you did what the teacher or professor required of you, the AP test is a nationally-normed test. A score of 5 on that test communicates that not only are you a good student who can handle college level work, but that you have demonstrated a high degree of mastery of the subject matter.
My opinion is that a score of 5 on the AP US History test communicates more about the student’s intellectual capacity and academic proficiency than an A in an introductory US history course offered by my local community college. While I have not done a scientific survey of admissions officers at selective colleges to reinforce my opinion, I’d bet dollars to doughnuts that most of my peers would agree. Standardized test, despite their flaws, do help admissions officers compare apples to apples. They help to separate grades from proficiency. High scores provide external verification that the grades a student earns are an expression of content mastery. So if your aim is to be admitted to the most selective colleges in the land, you should consider taking AP courses.
There is a caveat, however, that brings us back to my reader’s original question. She said that her school has a low pass rate in the AP program, and that students often get high grades in their AP courses and then score only 1 or 2 on the exams (i.e., they fail them). Thus I come back to my point in my previous post regarding AP courses: just because a course is labeled AP does not mean that it is a good course or that a student will achieve the level of mastery required to score a 5 on the AP exam. Many, many schools across the country are offering AP courses that very poorly taught by teachers who do simply do not have the content background or pedagogical skill to prepare students for these rigorous exams.
The College Board is trying to wratchet up the standards, because they know that parents are noticing the disconnect between the brand name and teacher preparedness. The steps the College Board is taking to verify AP syllabi in all courses labeled AP is a good first step. But in the end, success in the AP (or IB) program is not about the curriculum alone. It is about the teacher who delivers that curriculum.
Jaime Escalante of Stand and Deliver fame was able to get his poor, inner city students to pass the AP calculus exam not because he had a good syllabus, but because he was a fantastic, talented, workaholic teacher who would not rest until his students passed that exam. Teachers in your school’s AP program may resemble Mr. Escalante. Or they may resemble Mr. Larson, my high school math teacher, who was as creative as a lima bean and dedicated as an assembly line worker two weeks before retirement. An AP syllabus in his hands would make it highly unlikely than anyone but Einstein himself would pass that AP Calculus exam.
Mark Montgomery
College Counselor
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About the Author
Mark Montgomery
As a former professor, administrator, and high school teacher, Mark has the knowledge and skills to counsel students as they make the transition from high school to college.
28 Responses to “AP, IB, and Dual Enrollment (or PSEO): An Analysis”
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Related to this topic is what appears to be a drawback of dual enrollment. Our daughter will be graduating from high school in two weeks, and has taken 12 classes at our local community college that were credits accepted by her high school. This high school offers weighted GPA calculations for AP classes, but not if the student actually went to the college and obtained the credits there. This has impacted her overall GPA because she was doing much harder coursework, but isn’t allowed to get the benefit of weighted grades…so fewer scholarships and no Top 5% of her class.
Thanks for your comment, Jolene.
I’m curious to know what state you are from. Also, what can you tell me about the fact that she received “fewer scholarships”? I’m curious to know where she applied, and how the application was presented to the admissions office.
Many states are still in the throes of figuring out how to handle credits from community colleges when it comes to such matters. Perhaps you got squeezed in the process. But perhaps there is a financial aid appeal in there someplace?
Thanks again for visiting.
Please help. My daughter is terrified of AP and wants to take all dual enrolled. She has a 4.375 GPA and is going into her junior year. thanks
Hello, Kim.
Thanks for the comment. I’m not sure what you need help with. Do you think she should not dual enroll? What state are you in? What are her plans? I need much more context in order to be helpful. If you’d like a free consultation to see whether I can be helpful in a specific way, don’t hesitate to give me a call at 720.279.7577.
Thanks!
Thank you for the advice. Here is the information I received from UF. I thought you would like to see what they said. Thanks again!
From UF:
We consider AP, IB, AICE and Dual Enrollment classes to be the most academically challenging classes available to a student. When a student applies to UF, we recalculate a student’s high school GPA we only use grades 9 thru 11 and only use the 5 core academic classes — English, Math, Science, Social Science and Foreign Language. For Honors classes with a grade of “C” or better we give 1/2 point added weight, i.e., an “A” in Honors English is calculated as a 4.5. For AP, IB, AICE or Dual Enrollment classes with a grade of “C” or better we give 1.0 added weight, i.e., an “A” in AP English or English EC 1101 would be calculated as a 5.0. Senior year grades don’t count but the strength of the senior year schedule is very important — we look to see that a student is taking the most academically challenging courses available to them at their high school, we want to see that they have exhausted the academic opportunities available to them — we give added weight for AP, IB, AICE or Dual Enrollment classes during the senior year.
AP classes in any subject matter are considered academic classes while Dual Enrollment classes must be in the 5 core academic areas to be considered.
I hope this information is helpful to you and your daughter in planning her schedule for both her junior and senior year.
Kim,
Many thanks for the information from the University of Florida. As you can see, going straight to the horse’s mouth is the best way to learn these different policies.
Did you see the article in today’s Chronicle of Higher Education about the huge budget crunch at Florida Universities? Professors are losing the phones in their offices. The maintenance crews are removing lightbulbs to save energy. The question is not whether, but when the budget cuts will begin to affect the educational experience at Florida’s public institutions.
Thanks again!
so which is better for colleges? ib or ap?
Hi, Judith.
As most of my posts try to indicated, the answer is: “it depends.” Both programs are great. It depends on the student’s priorities, personality, performance. It also may depend on the quality of the AP and IB programs available to the student, as one program in your area may be stronger than the other. Fundamentally, however, you must ask yourself which approach will allow the student to be more successful. At the end of the day (or at the end of junior year), what will matter most is how well the student performed in whichever program she chooses. Neither program will “get a student in.” Achievement is what gets the student accepted.
Hope that helps, and thanks for stopping by.
My daughter will be starting her junior year this Aug (Florida high school). She completed a dual enrollment class over the summer, but how would that work if she did more dual enrolled classes during the year? Would she have to take all the ‘required to graduate’ credits in high school AS WELL as the community college classes? Thank you so much for your advice. I love this website!
Hi Judith,
My name is Katherine and I work with Mark. As far as dual enrollment programs go, you would have to ask your daughter’s high school how her dual enrollment courses would fulfill her high school graduation requirements. In terms of receiving college credit for dual enrollment courses taken while still in high school, it really depends on the policy of the college or university your daughter is thinking of applying to and attending. Some colleges and universities see dual enrollment programs as a bonus in terms of students having a more challenging curriculum, but they are reluctant to accept the courses for credit since the student also received credit for the course towards her high school diploma. I guess along with other aspects of the college admission and selection process, “it depends” on the policies of the college or university you daughter is thinking of applying to. Let us know if we can help with the process!
Katherine Price
Senior Associate
Two thumbs up for dual-enrollment! At least the version present in New Mexico.
My twins have been aware of it since their HS Junior year. D spawn thought about it as a replacement for an AP HS course taught by a poorly regarded teacher, and in the end skipped the course. S spawn has been taking further courses at the U since exhausting the AP curriculum at the HS.
It is true that the GPA is waxed and shined by AP more than PSEO allows, even before considering the faster pace of college and post AP level, but so what ? Any truly selective college worth it’s name can read a transcript and education resume, and give that student a star.
A very nice side benefit of PSEO for our family has also happened: S spawn originally had designs of attending a prestigious, expensive college. Now he knows that the local state U can challenge him just as far as he can reach, and easily for next few years, quite a bit more. When and if he ever exhausts the doctoral level classes or is interested in power internships or wow research, we will happily support his move to his next frontier. In the meantime, a full ride locally is just an amazing deal.
Thanks, Eric, for your personal insights into the value of dual enrollment programs. They really can be terrific options for a lot of students, and as you point out, they can help parents save a ton of money!
My daughter just started IB this year, she is thinking about changing to dual enrollment, what is your suggestion?
Hello, Babita,
Thanks for your question and your follow-up phone call. As I explained on the phone, it’s virtually impossible for me to give advice like this without a full understanding of the options available, the academic goals of your student, her preferences and priorities, and her learning style. Fortunately, we can begin to do that by phone, so I’m looking forward to learning more about your daughter as she maps her college journey!
Hi, I’m an IB student and it’s my junior year. I think junior year is the most difficult, specially in IB and I don’t know if I want to continue. My classes are tough and I’m in 2 different sports in my school. I can’t decide on whether to stay in the program or get out. I also feel that if I get out I can succeed more in honors or AP classes more than being in IB. I really need advice. please help me.
Hello, Tiffany,
I’m not sure I can really help you, except to say that this is a common conundrum. If you are leaving IB because it is tough, remember that AP classes are no cakewalk. However, the AP curriculum permits you greater range of choice and a broader curriculum than the more focused IB. Either curriculum is great. Either will testify to the fact that you are taking a demanding curriculum. In both cases, what will matter is your performance: how well did you do in those classes and on those exams? The curriculum is not what will get you into college: it’s your performance.
Hope this at least helps you to frame the question, even if I’m not able to provide you with the answer.
Best of luck.
I hope you are still taking questions.
Do private and public colleges do their own weighting of grades when they consider admission and scholarships?
Our school has removed weight and class rank to discourage PSEO participation.
How do you get consideration for merit based aid when the HS transcript must be mailed directly from the HS guidance office?
Hi, Susan.
I think it’s kind of funny that your school is discouraging PSEO participation. I wonder what the beef is…too many kids finding HS boring and irrelevant?
As for your fear that private and public colleges will not take due notice of your son or daughter’s transcript, please don’t worry. Try not to, anyway. Colleges have their own internal systems of judging the rigor of a student’s curriculum. They will look not only at PSEO courses, but also AP, IB, and honors. They will also receive a profile of the graduates of the school, which will explain their weighting policies (or lack thereof). When it comes to merit based aid, it’s usually based on GPA and test scores (see Southwestern University, for example, which makes their awards very clear). Or else it is some mysterious, unidentified process that colleges prefer to keep to themselves. If there is any doubt, you can contact individual colleges and universities directly to learn about their policies about merit aid awards and their relation to weighted and unweighted GPA and class rank.
I hope this helps a bit.
Hi, I’m a dual-enrollment student that’s currently enrolled in a community college in California. This past semester I exceeded my 60 units and am now considered an upper level college student at the community college, I want to transfer to a school in Florida as a Jr. When I applied they called and said that I may be considered as a freshman due to my being a dual-enrollment student. Can you help explain this? Is there a way around this? It is because I’m an out of state student that I’m facing this issue, do the credits not transfer?
Hi, Keith.
Your community college credits are transferable, by law, to another state-funded institution of higher education in the state of California. Florida is under no obligation to accept those credits. Thus since you have not yet graduated high school, you will be considered a freshman in Florida. However, in California, you can be a junior (as long as all of your credits fall within the California state guidelines for transfer–you’ll have to talk to the colleges there to be sure).
If you want to go to college in Florida, then your dual enrollment classes will certainly help you get admitted. But again, they credits will not likely transfer. So you have to decide which is preferable: save money and time and stay in California, or move to Florida and pay more money and take longer to complete your degree (and then maybe go to Florida for graduate school…?)
Hope this helps.
Hello! I happen to be a full-time dual enrolled student, and I have to say that it has for the most part worked out wonderfully for me.
I can understand why AP would be more appealing than dual-enrollment to some people because of the GPA breaks, but my high school is rather stupid. They don’t weigh GPA’s for hard classes at all, and the AP classes are overcrowded, hard to get into, and usually poorly taught, so for me dual-enrollment sounded like a much better option.
Even though I’ve loved the freedom of my new schedule, there have been a few drawbacks. Firstly, my GPA has dropped a bit since enrolling in PSEO. Math is not really my strong suit, and I got a B in College Algebra, ruining my 4.0 and knocking me out of the top 5% of the class. That’s right, if you take only easy classes, it is very easy to get a 4.0 around my high school, and it screws all of the students who want to challenge themselves over.
Another weakness is that my credits won’t transfer everywhere. I wish there were some sort of comprehensive list of all of the places that will accept credit, but for the most part colleges are not very forthcoming on their websites about accepting other credits. Most “elite” schools will accept little, if any, of my credits, but all of the colleges in my state (Minnesota) are willing to accept them all.
In short, PSEO has been a wonderful experience for me and has been way less stressful than regular high school, with it’s controlling administration and teenage drama. However, the challenging coursework has caused my GPA to drop, and I am now very limited in the schools that I can attend without losing credit. It’s a good thing that I like the University of Minnesota — Twin Cities, or I’d have really been screwed over!
Hi, Kim,
Thanks for your thoughtful and very helpful comment. You see the pros and cons very clearly. As you say, the PSEO option can help you amass college credits most easily if you are planning to attend a state university. It is especially easy to transfer PSEO credits from a community college to a four-year college in the same state. Private colleges, however, are under less pressure to accept those credits, both politically and economically. So if you go the PSEO route, don’t expect credits to transfer automatically to a private college–do the research in advance.
Best of luck, and thanks again for stopping by.
I teach at a small, rural high school in northwest Florida (420-plus students grades 6-12), and we experimented with AP classes for the first time. I taught AP Literature and Composition for seniors. We offered AP Biology and World History for sophomores, Government and Economics for seniors and a Psychology course that students anywhere from grades 9-12.
We got our scores back and of the 69 tests we issued, only three students made a 3 or Above, and two of them were mine. One made a 4, another a 3 with nine scores of 2 and two scores of 1. We kind of jumped in and “ran with the ball,” and I was the only teacher who had attended a AP Summer Institute.
Our school is now considering pulling the plug on my AP class because we can hire a teacher who can teach dual enrollment. I have no personal axe to grind because I understand the kids’ predicament. A lot of our students attend the local junior college and take dual enrollment classes through it.
My gripe is I wonder if we’re throwing in the towel too soon. We need to vertical team our AP and likely offer less AP. We’ve already cut Biology and World History, and I’m disappointed I’m on the chopping block.
Being a small school we should offer less AP, but I am a firm believer less is more. I was all ready to begin this year, but I may not get the opportunity. I feel all of my 13 seniors who left (even the two who scored a 1) can handle themselves in a English 1101 environment.
Should we try to stay the course, so to speak, in a few curricular areas? Also, do you happen to know if schools in Florida get money for offering AP courses or the number of kids in an AP course? Does the state pay for the kids to take the test? I heard the state allocates funds to school districts to cover this.
I’m a firm believer if we can vertical team a few subjects and get them successful, AP can be successful at our school. However, there’s also the stigma of instant success and impatience at building a program.
Since we’re so small and rural, is it best for our school to offer just dual enrollment? I have more mixed emotions than ever now, but I KNOW I can successfully teach my AP class.
Hi, Jeff.
Thanks for the comment. Your story points to the difficulty of starting up a solid AP program in a rural area with teachers who are inexperienced at offering the program. I can feel your frustration, and I admire your confidence (which is well-founded) that you CAN successfully teach the AP program. Further, it seems to feel good to you that the AP program provides some sort an external standard by which you can judge the performance of your students.
PSEO is a good alternative, though I do understand that it is something of a cop out. PSEO options may or may not be as rigorous as an AP course, because community college courses are not held to a national assessment in the way the AP is so held.
As for Florida’s policies on paying for APs, I really don’t know. I should think this would be public information that you could get from your state department of education.
With regard to your final question…whether PSEO is better for your district…I can’t really say. You have identified the difficulty: one needs well-trained teachers in a well-articulated program in order to achieve solid results. Should the district put aside the impulse toward instant gratification and build a solid AP program? Or should the district save the time and expense by taking advantage of the PSEO options, which achieve the same advanced placement result? You raise the conundrum well. But as a democratic entity, your school committee is the one who has to make that difficult decision. And it sounds like they’re going for the PSEO.
In any event, I encourage you to keep up the good fight and do all you can to teach those kids the very best you can.
Warm regards,
Mark
Hi, I am a dual enrollment student at Broward College. I took 2 classes there this summer, and I plan to take 3 classes during my highschool senior year coming up. I was wondering if the grade I received in my AP classes and Dual Enrollment classes will affect my college GPA? If so, are they counted with an extra 1.0 like they are in my highschool GPA? I was also wondering if it matters in college if it’s a B+ or does it just count as a B when calculating college GPA. Here is some background info… I am applying to Florida universities, and I currently have a 4.7 weighted GPA and a 3.8 unweighted in highschool.
Alexis,
Your high school determines what will be on your HS transcript. If the Broward courses were really “dual enrollment,” then your grades from those courses should show up on your HS transcript, and will be included in calculating your HS GPA. As for whether these courses are weighted, this, too, is a high school decision (and not a college one). So you will need to speak to your HS counseling office or to your HS registrar to learn of those policies. As for those “pluses” and “minuses,” colleges generally look at whatever high schools give them. Some high schools strip the pluses and minuses, others do not.
Thanks for writing in!